January Banlist Discussion

Patrick HobanHey guys! It’s been a while since my last article. I’m going to make an attempt to get back on track with writing them weekly, so what better to start with than what I’m sure will be a controversial and highly debated one, a ban list article!

 

Konami surprised everyone with the September list. I think I had to have been the most surprised of all, but I think it was a really positive change that brought about a great format! Even if you dislike Dragons, it’s going to be really difficult to make an argument against the quality of it when you take a look at the list of champions from this format. On it, we’ve got Edward Kuang, Michel Gruner, Merlin Schumacher, Sean McCabe, Jerry Williams, Sam Pedigo, and I even managed to squeak out a win as well! That’s a really impressive list with most of them having around 10+ major event tops. A list of champions like that is something we should strive to continue, that’s why whenever I make a ban list article it is based on what I think the list should look like, not what I think it will look like (though September these two were pretty much the same!) This is important to remember as you read the article as I completely acknowledge that they aren’t going to be banning [ccProd]Elemental Hero Bubbleman[/ccProd], I’d just like to offer an explanation as to why I think they should. Without further ado, here’s the list!

 

Newly Forbidden:

[ccProd]Blaster, Dragon Ruler of Infernos[/ccProd] [ccProd]Elemental Hero Bubbleman[/ccProd] [ccProd]Inzektor Hornet[/ccProd] [ccProd]Limiter Removal[/ccProd] [ccProd]Tempest, Dragon Ruler of Storms[/ccProd] [ccProd]Tidal, Dragon Ruler of Waterfalls[/ccProd] [ccProd]Redox, Dragon Ruler of Boulders[/ccProd] [ccProd]Rekindling[/ccProd] [ccProd]Return from the Different Dimension[/ccProd] [ccProd]Royal Tribute[/ccProd] [ccProd]Sixth Sense[/ccProd]

 

Newly Limited:

[ccProd]Call of the Haunted[/ccProd] [ccProd]Deck Devastation Virus[/ccProd] [ccProd]DNA Surgery[/ccProd] [ccProd]Elemental Hero Stratos[/ccProd] [ccProd]Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo[/ccProd] [ccProd]Evilswarm Ophion[/ccProd] [ccProd]Geargiarmor[/ccProd] [ccProd]Gozen Match[/ccProd] [ccProd]Hieratic Dragon King of Atum[/ccProd] [ccProd]Hope for Escape[/ccProd] [ccProd]Imperial Iron Wall[/ccProd] [ccProd]Judgment Dragon[/ccProd] [ccProd]Karakuri Shogun mdl 00 "Burei"[/ccProd] [ccProd]Karakuri Steel Shogun mdl 00X "Bureido"[/ccProd] [ccProd]Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer[/ccProd] [ccProd]Lavalval Chain[/ccProd] [ccProd]Light Imprisoning Mirror[/ccProd] [ccProd]Mermail Abyssgunde[/ccProd] [ccProd]Pot of Greed[/ccProd] [ccProd]Rivalry of the Warlords[/ccProd] [ccProd]Royal Decree[/ccProd] [ccProd]Six Samurai United[/ccProd] [ccProd]Shadow Imprisoning Mirror[/ccProd] [ccProd]Skill Drain[/ccProd] [ccProd]Spellbook of Fate[/ccProd] [ccProd]Thousand-Eyes Restrict[/ccProd] [ccProd]Vanity’s Emptiness[/ccProd]

 

Newly Semi-Limited:

[ccProd]Blackwing - Gale the Whirlwind[/ccProd] [ccProd]Dragon Ravine[/ccProd] [ccProd]Inzektor Dragonfly[/ccProd] [ccProd]Neo-Spacial Grand Mole[/ccProd] [ccProd]Reckless Greed[/ccProd]

 

Newly Unrestricted:

[ccProd]Burner, Dragon Ruler of Sparks[/ccProd] [ccProd]Lightning, Dragon Ruler of Drafts[/ccProd] [ccProd]Reactant, Dragon Ruler of Pebbles[/ccProd] [ccProd]Stream, Dragon Ruler of Droplets[/ccProd] [ccProd]The Transmigration Prophecy[/ccProd] [ccProd]T.G. Striker[/ccProd]

buylist

 

Cards that Don’t Let you Play

 

It’s certainly a lot of changes, isn’t it? I think what I’d most like to start with a group of cards, rather than going individually. These cards are DNA Surgery, Fossil Dyna, Evilswarm Ophion, Gozen Match, Imperial Iron Wall, Deck Devastation Virus, Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer, Light Imprisoning Mirror, Shadow Imprisoning Mirror, Rivalry of Warlords, Royal Decree, and Vanity’s Emptiness. In my earlier ban list articles I talked about how I didn’t like the idea of cards that did not allow both players to interact. If a player had such a card up, they were allowed to play while the other person had to have an out or they would simply lose. In a format where we are trying to get the better player to win, cards like this cannot exist in multiples. Konami must not like these cards as well as you can see examples of them already hitting cards like this such as [ccProd]Soul Drain[/ccProd], [ccProd]Thunder King Rai-Oh[/ccProd], and [ccProd]Eradicator Epidemic Virus[/ccProd].

Sam Pedigo became the face of these trap cards when he won YCS Turin with a full set of 7 in the main deck and another 6 in the side deck. His strategy was to simply not allow his opponent to play while he could. While it was certainly a brilliant strategy, it’s not one that makes for a skillful format as skill is based off of card interactions. If you can’t even play cards, how is that skillful?

I debated the length I should take in removing these cards from the game. It’s entirely possible that it is correct to outright ban every card in this group and extend it to cards like [ccProd]Vanity’s Fiend[/ccProd] and[ccProd] Jowgen the Spiritualist[/ccProd].

 

Dragons

 

While I do think Dragons have been good for the game, it’s probably time they leave us, primarily for the case of variety. The game will lose interest to people and become much more boring if they are allowed to stay. They’ve had their time, but I don’t think most people will miss them. Anything other than outright banning them leaves the potential that they will still be the best deck as they are 4 of the best cards ever printed. That’s why I went ahead and got rid of them all and unrestricted the babies as opposed to other options like hitting their engine of Ravine or Sword.

 

Unfair Cards

Two cards I’m sure we’d all like to see go in January are Return and Sixth Sense. Unfortunately there are a few more cards than that that I think should go along with them. Let’s hope that we’ve all learned our lessons with any card that contains the text “summon as many monsters as possible” with Return. Quite frankly I don’t care if Rekindling isn’t played or you believe Lavals are cool. Cards like Rekindling shouldn’t exist and most especially not at 3. It’s a themed Return from the Different Dimension. Can we agree to not have any more formats with any cards like this?

 

I was tempted to add Inzektor Hornet to cards that don’t allow you to play. It essentially punishes you for playing as it can destroy any card you do play. Are you just never going to commit to the field? Couple that with the fact that it allows you to easily OTK your opponent and it definitely meets my qualifications for banning.  I gave the deck a second Dragonfly so that people can take the deck in a different direction. Using him with Ladybug still gives you a rank 5 and a search from Centipede which is still very powerful.

 

Royal Tribute punishes you for playing Monsters in your deck. You can’t really just not play Monsters and the card is quite unfair.

 

Judgment Dragon is the best monster in the entire game and it’s currently at 3. Even without the new Lightsworn support, having a card that destroys your opponent’s field at such a minimal cost is simply not okay.

 

Ever since I’ve been making banlists I’ve included Reckless Greed. Until recently it never actually saw any play and most people were not open to the idea of hitting such an unplayed card. Well let me tell you that I got multiple tops this format solely because of this card and I can personally assure you that having multiples of this card is very unfair.

 

Geargiarmor. Really this entire format has been the culmination of what I’ve been saying in all of my ban list articles. They finally banned cards that have no place in the game such as Gateway, began hitting cards that don’t promote interaction such as Soul Drain, the thing about Reckless Greed, and now Geargia Armor. Yes this card is indeed unfair. It is a plus 1 every turn, toolboxes an entire engine, and threatens an OTK any turn it isn’t stopped. Sam’s results in Italy pretty much prove all of these to be true.

While we’re on the topic of Geargiarmor, I’d like to go ahead and talk about how unfair Call of the Haunted is. Specifically in Geargia, it means that you can’t safely get rid of Armor without being threatened with an end phase Call to flip it down and search on your turn. We’ve seen its power in Agents where the deck could play 6 [ccProd]Master Hyperion[/ccProd] through maxing out on this card. [ccProd]Monster Reborn[/ccProd] is banned for a reason. Having one that only picks from your grave isn’t restricting enough to leave the card at 3.

 

[ccProd]Hope for Escape[/ccProd] is a card that will draw you anywhere from 2-4 cards. It’s only played in degenerate decks that don’t wish to interact with your opponent. I’d love to hit the consistency of those decks and reduce how played they are even further.

 

I’m not entirely sure the best way to deal with Infernity, but the deck is certainly unfair. I believe it was the best deck prior to Dragons, so it is entirely possible it will be the first best deck in the post Dragon era. Something needs to be hit. I chose Lavalval Chain as a slight hit to consistency, but it’s entirely possible that a more restrictive hit may be necessary.

 

Spellbook of Fate is the last card I want to talk about in this group. I really didn’t really like I could leave Books untouched without them automatically becoming the best deck, so I knew I had to hit something. I’ll talk in the following section about why it wasn’t Secrets or Magician. That left Fate as the prime candidate. It keeps your opponent locked out of the game and having to deal with a live Fate every turn is nearly impossible. The deck loses more than you think when you can’t consistently back your powerful spells with a defensive card.

 

Hitting Consistency

 

I think these last couple of formats have proven that when both players have access to any card in their deck at any time, the better player will win. Dragons and Spellbooks from the last 2 formats don’t really play with 6 card hands, they play with 40 card decks. Because of this, I wanted to not hit cards that allow players to do this past a minimal level. The only two cards I hit under this list were Dragon Ravine and Six Samurai United. Dragon Ravine was too powerful with Dragons in the game, but is still an insane engine for Dragunity’s without them. Six Samurai United might be okay if the point of the deck weren’t to turbo into a monster that restricted your ability to play the game. If we were to outright ban [ccProd]Legendary Six Samurai - Shi En[/ccProd], I might be more okay with leaving this at 3.

 

Stopping OTKs

 

Putting 8000 on board in a single turn completely disregards the concept of player interactions and is very bad for the game. Because of this there are several cards that I wanted to hit to limit this. Limiter Removal, while not a played card, doesn’t serve any legitimate purpose other than to fuel this degenerate strategy.

 

Karakuri Burei and Bureido also allow you to OTK an opponent with ease. The deck doesn’t become completely unplayable as going Burei, Bureido, and a level 8 is still possible, which makes me wonder if this is enough of a limit as that can still be 8000. It at least assures that they cannot keep advantage through drawing multiple free cards from Bureido and limits how carelessly they can throw their hand on the board when they only have one of each.

 

Elemental Hero Bubbleman. I’m sure a lot of people went crazy seeing this card. Really though, I think there is a lot of merit to banning this card. Previously I was a fan of banning Stratos as well and in September, Konami finally did it. Then I reexamined why I wanted Stratos banned. It wasn’t that I thought his ability to search another Hero was too powerful, but that his ability to search Bubbleman and OTK you was too unfair. After looking at it like that, I decided that it might be better to hit the problem directly and go for Bubbleman. This would allow Hero decks to have Stratos back without being able to OTK on the drop of a hat.

 

Hieratic Dragon King of Atum is a card that affords Hieratics too many options to OTK. Spamming multiple copies of this card and then making Gaia Charger is in no way good for any player looking to play an interactive game.

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict and Pot of Greed

 

I can see it now! “He’s trying to bring back Goat Control!” While it’s a cute concept, let me assure you that the idea of bring back Goat Control in 2014, a full 10 years later with a huge power curve, is entirely unrealistic. I brought back Thousand-Eyes because it will have no impact. The best thing that can be done is summon it off of Instant Fusion and take a monster and then tribute or Synchro off Thousand Eyes. That’s hardly a ban worthy card in today’s game.

 

Pot of Greed, however, I’m sure will raise some eyebrows. Why on earth would you want to bring back that card? As I talked about above, whether or not you like Dragon Rulers, they’ve certainly been good for the game as the eventual winner is almost always a great player. Why is that? It’s because Dragon Rulers introduced a unique way of playing Goat Control-like games. In Goat Control there were very few cards that were good in the early game. This meant players would sit there for a few turns and instead of having 6 cards each, the game would build up so that players had 9-10 cards each. At this point both players had more options available to them and the player that could most effectively trade resources with the other would win out. Dragons did a similar thing as having 6 cards in hand and 4 Dragons in grave meant you had 10 cards available to you. This made Dragon mirror matches very skillful, but made Dragons outright better than any other deck. If we take this concept of a more skillful game when both players have more cards, it doesn’t seem unrealistic to unban Pot of Greed.

 

Irrelevant Cards

 

The last cards on my list will likely remain irrelevant to the competitive scene and are only still on the list because of formats from a long time ago. Gale, Grand Mole, Transmigration Prophecy, and T.G. striker are all perfectly balanced with the power curve being where it is. There may have been a time where these were too powerful, but that time has past and it’s safe for them to come off the list now.

 

That about wraps up this week’s article. I’ll try to respond to whatever comments are made by people I felt actually read the article and didn’t just glance at the list. I hope to see you in St. Louis this weekend (December 14-15) for ARG’s final event of the year! I’m sure it will be a great one. Play hard or go home!

argcs

Patrick Hoban

Patrick Hoban

Patrick Hoban

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Discussion

comments

  • 8bitkasper

    hy would you ban the big rulers and unban the babys?

  • 8bitkasper

    i just take the ban list as it comes and deal with it, besides the only card ive ever been bothered by being banned is mirage of nightmare and lets face it thats never coming back.

  • yeah

    I’m just gonna have to say you are an idiot.

  • Noah LaRosa

    Yeah nevermind you are way biased mate.

  • Your Inner Concious Here.

    I enjoy reading from this sites selection of Articles and Consider it personally one of my Few go sources for near-Accurate takes on and pin-point view on a constant up to date Meta/Deck Building Theory’s discussion etc. articles on the never ending demanding card game we call “Yugioh”. Sadly I feel to Throw my 2 Cents into this Article. Unfortunately blatantly Ignoring My Made Up Motto, “Simply Read and Don’t Reply.” This is Instantly my first Mistake I regret already but ultimately may or may not Find out later down the road if I had to nerve to revisit My Comment. Also please everyone please Bear this mind the Fact that I even decided to begin to type words and put words together to make sentences, Were quite Frankly generally Focused Towards Patrick’s written Article. Hopefully if your Planning on replying to my Comment, I implore you to read the whole Block of words I worked so hard to put together to form what is called a Rant for Patrick. But since I’m clearly playing with in fire anyway, I Shouldn’t be Shocked if People would even be interested in responding to what I Just typed or let alone Read it. Because somehow I feel I Opened myself to Mean and irrelevant replies that look appealing to a majority of people right about Now.

    Anyway,Patrick Before what it will seem to Appear to be a Long unappealing Rant, Straight out from the start of the Gecko, I foremost want to start off by saying, From the Beginning when people/players started to being to accept/acknowledge you as a formidable competitor duelist. From that Point Onward, slowly but surely each passing Day you gained my respect as a duelist at the times you didn’t Act extremely Highly of yourself or write Arrogantly as if your were looking down on others knew everything or Make petty attempts of Excuses. When writing Premier event articles you explained in detailed about on winning/Losing or topping as well Explaining your Choice of Deck with the Explanation of Tech/Side Card Choices and What you expected the Meta will be in anticipation. You also Write articles that pertained To which my surprise (Hopefully others was well) its was one of your Strong suites when discussing Debatable Yugioh Theories with Backed Up Statement Credible knowledge, Time Consuming Material that people would actually would have to Stop to think very carefully about or must Do Quite a bit time-consuming amount of Testing and researching themselves.

    Both titles which I Enjoy thoroughly reading and understanding well spent Insight.

    But if you Want to Go into Ban-Articles it gets downright Nasty, almost like approaching a very “Negative” Zone that is should be meant more for Fun then Competitive Attempts. I understand you Look at it from a perspective view of Professional competitive Player logic Who wants nothing more then the standard ideal fixed world for the Card Game to have Less of a Factor of relying Luck, top decking Broken Game, and more focused on a fair, Competitive environment fixated on a Control-oriented, Slow Thinking Skilled Card Game. Simply its just unrealistic and Impossible. But also sadly you only have of the 1 of the 2 parts needed when Approaching to even attempt to write this Article, You need to also have the Mindset of a Konami Business persons logical point of view as well taking into account unfortunately.Taking into consideration at The Long Extent of list of Past Cards/Decks already released and made (AND) The List of incoming Cards/Decks being planned on to be released in the 4 month Time Span.
    To me personally, I feel that’s truly road to take obtain the idea of remotely of being close to making a truly Unbiased near Realistic Ban-List when merging the Two perspective Views/Thoughts as one. Not Perfect But Flawless, Unless your making it for Pure-Fun then it’s Ball-Game for Anyone.

    With That being Said, Unless You want personally want the Honors of being engulfed in a Yu-gi-oh Internet Community Full-Fledged all out Turf war of constant Flamers/harassers/Trollers/etc. Who Without the slightest of hesitating and backed with immaturity of The “Internet-OHs Community” at their Fullest, You Should probably have Johnny-Li helping you out a Just a Tad-Bit.(Forgive Me Didn’t see him make a Post/Comment within the flood of 100+ comments Yet.) Probably to set the Tone of the First intimidating Comment. Setting the Law Comment/Post as well as taking into account him body guarding/Patrolling your Article. (Which seems Silly to even suggest for me). Hopefully not For some Strange Unknown reason Just Simply You Enjoy the Thrill of being Abused and Flamed by an Enraged-OH Commenters For No Absolute Reason. Even with the added fact that trying to make early statements such as “Cards That don’t Let you Play” in the beginning of your articles leaning towards the Fact that its a method that slightly Protects you towards the possible negative comments people make in the long run will only protect you for so long. It also doesn’t help you if you contradict the statement you made or becomes null and void with a card that doesn’t fill the purpose of your earlier statement you make such as “Pot Of Greed” Clearly the Card doesn’t let me Play. Pretty Much a “Just Play me and Draw 2 new Cards No downside whatsoever. if a player Such as god forbid Joey Wheeler played this card, even by my standards then that sir I Believe is the highest form of epiphany I can possibly Think of to my abilities to be on par with your quote, “Cards that don’t let you play.” Praying on the Highest Form of power that serenity wheeler never played the pot of greed card herself, But if she actually did… Lets Not Dwell on that any longer.

    Life Lesson Words of Advice, I Hope you actually take into Careful Consideration. “Please, Avoid Written Ban-List Articles.” It is abundantly clear that this is one of your weakest Links and with a Vast Amount unforgiving duelist waiting to Strike sensitive Topic. Hopefully you’ll have a the slightest thought of consideration to my suggestion, and hopefully focus more on simply winning Premier Events and written articles about winning or topping the Premier-Event. A very butchered Quote I’m about make to type relating to “The Lord of the Rings” Books/Movies. “One simply does not Decide to Write a Yu-Gi-Oh Ban-List Article.”

    Anyway Looking at the list you attempted to provided for discussion, I couldn’t help but noticed you pretty Much a Chose a lot of side deck Cards (degenerate Cards) to Hit and a sadly lot of the Current Decks that were played this September format. You Stated Titles such as “Unfair Cards” and etc. I simply respond with a title of my own called “Unfair Decks options”. Taking into account looking at your Selection of choices for a Made Up Predicted Ban-List. Then Lets say if I were to Play under the List you Provided to hypothetically be used this format. Including the Booster packs structure Decks any other Product that were to be released within the 4 month Format Time-Span, I’m just going to Go Seek and destroy Players People with The Old-School Style Gladiators Beast Decks for the Whole 4 Month Format. Simply Doing the ideal First Turn of Setting 5 Spell/Trap Cards, Summoning/Setting a Monster and Saying, “What’s Good, Come At Me Bro!” Sarcastically . I see no Sentimental Gain in debate to go in-depth with the reason of choices you made to Hit and Explaining why, Their is no just no Will in me and the energy to elaborate to explain to why at this point. It would just sadden me.

    Also Patrick or commenters for the Sake of my Sanity/safety. I strongly suggest to Not Respond to my Post whatsoever. My post was just constructive criticism towards Patrick and maybe a venting rant and just Nothing More. But if you feel the urge and insist upon it you can just reply about my Post, but bear this in mind I’m just throwing my 2 cents out their and will not highly not reply any further. Pretty My one post and That’s it thing.

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    If you actually took the time to read these block of words I supposedly put together To Best usage my brain can Utilize, I Humbly Thank you.

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  • Nick Habeeb

    It’s nice to know my two favorite decks are giving you nightmares Pat 🙂

    Geargiarmor. Really this entire format has been the culmination of what I’ve been saying in all of my ban list articles. They finally banned cards that have no place in the game such as Gateway, began hitting cards that don’t promote interaction such as Soul Drain, the thing about Reckless Greed, and now Geargia Armor. Yes this card is indeed unfair. It is a plus 1 every turn, toolboxes an entire engine, and threatens an OTK any turn it isn’t stopped. Sam’s results in Italy pretty much prove all of these to be true.

    Karakuri Burei and Bureido also allow you to OTK an opponent with ease. The deck doesn’t become completely unplayable as going Burei, Bureido, and a level 8 is still possible, which makes me wonder if this is enough of a limit as that can still be 8000. It at least assures that they cannot keep advantage through drawing multiple free cards from Bureido and limits how carelessly they can throw their hand on the board when they only have one of each.

  • Michael Tran

    This guy is a fucking joke.

    • Osama Bin Laden

      Agreed.

  • Osama Bin Laden

    Dude ur a complete douche bag Lol this kid thinks E-Dragons were good for the game.

  • Anthony Long

    Patrick majority of the cards you hit are side deck cards… and about the dragon it clear that your hating dragons… i know that its one of the most powerful and consistent deck to come out but i would say semi limit the big dragons, limit all the babies, limit dragon ravine, and limit seven star sword this way the engine and consistency of the deck would slow down. and remember other decks play the big dragons such as Fire fist, mermail, geargia, dragunity, and harpies.. and banning them would somewhat destroy these decks

    and banning inzektor hornet is clearly bias

    • Skylark Kraut

      Post is a little late, but I think this is closer to where these cards will eventually be on the Limited List.

  • crowstar

    One difference with pot of greed compared to dragons is that with dragons both players had a very high chance of having some dragons available after a few turns. Both players enjoyed that increase in options. However with pot of greed at 1, it is unlikely that both players will enjoy these extra options and far more likely that only one player will. This creates a skill deficiency because one player would have an inherent advantage due to luck over another player.

  • Pyro

    lol 1st banlist I like. altho i think adults should be limited other than that it looks good xD. only pot of greed… should be interesting if that ever happens lol

  • AYGOPlayerNamedAFiberJar

    I don’t think you’ve heard of the Transmigration OTK’s…
    Also, this banlist is so contradictory I have a hard time believing you became the national champion based on anything aside from luck…

  • Aln Dav

    You didn’t explained Gunde

  • Jason Leong

    I’m really failing to understand why [list of champions here] winning during this format somehow makes it a good format… The quality of a format is not defined by who’s winning premier events. While this format was definitely better than the last, the dominance of dragon rulers have mostly doused the hope of a diverse format.

    I really don’t understand why you continuously refuse to acknowledge that dragon rulers have been incredibly unhealthy for the game. DRs are more unfair than any of the cards you’ve classed as unfair. They fundamentally skew the game in such a way that they make the pool of competitive decks shallower. Giving a deck resources from the graveyard on top of field and hand resources, is flat out degenerate.

  • Daniel Knight

    Patrick, you can’t banlist to save your life.

  • Twayson Edwards

    i agree with most things except banning the dragons i thing we need them in the game to balance single element decks but not to be a deck by themselves and i dont see them being broken at 2 or 1 so banning them in my opinion hurts more than it helps (i am not a dragon player and never will be but i splash tidol in frogs and redox in machina and blaster in firkings

  • uwishuknew

    Dude r u trolling all of us???? Banning hornet is stupid. That’s taking a deck`s identity away. No need to hit karakuri, geargia, lightsworn, hieratic, or six samurai. None of those decks have done anything ( except geargia) the rest is pretty good though.

  • Guest

    Except both players won’t always see pot of greed(most of the time only 1 player will) and the player who draws it gets a free +1. That’s hardly fair.

  • Bryan Hoke

    I like your arguments for the merits of universal consistency and for removing cards that are too game-breaking — I think both of those are mutually important for minimizing the impact of chance (and maximizing the impact of skill) on the game. At first I was sad when you suggested forbidding Rekindling (because I love Lavals), but after reading the rest of the article and thinking about it, I realized that, really, I would rather have a broader, more well-supported, and more consistent Laval archetype without Rekindling than the more narrow but more explosive one with Rekindling that we have now.

    I thought your argument for bumping Pot of Greed to limited was interesting and I liked the reasoning behind it. However, another commenter made the point that at 1, the consistency of Pot of Greed would be inconsistently found and could create luck-born advantages in games. I thought that sounded like a reasonable point, too, so I considered the extreme case where Pot of Greed is unrestricted (and the too-explosive cards become forbidden) and the added consistency becomes more dependable. One the one hand, running 3 Pot of Greed would probably be a trivial decision in any given deck, but the card itself doesn’t actually seem to be equivalent to lowering the deck-count by one (akin to Upstart Goblin). It seems like it would be more like a new game mechanic along the lines of, “randomly, up to 3(/2/1) times per duel, you will draw 2 cards during your draw phase instead of 1”. It feels kind of like a “critical hit” kind of mechanic, though, because its effect is fundamentally uniform across decks (which maybe isn’t necessarily a bad thing) and situations, and I can’t imagine any plausible situation where you wouldn’t auto-play it (except after searching something, given the opportunity). I’m really more of a fan of the mechanics underlying Pot of Duality, because instead of just giving you two predetermined cards, it gives you a choice (i.e., an opportunity for skill) from 3, and it even self-regulates with its conditions of use. Presently, I think I’ve come to the stance that I don’t like the idea of cards that are trivial to include in any deck and are basically trivial to decide to activate at any point in a duel, because it seems then that the luck of drawing into them or not would begin to influence the game in undesirable ways.

    I like the general philosophy behind this list, though, and I would like to see more of the game head in that direction.

  • Clinton Cahill

    Pot of Greed(stupid idea), Thousand-Eyes Restrict(Advanced Ritual Art+King of the Swamp+Tsukuyomi/Broken), Return from the Different Dimension(Only a Problem cause of Dragon Rulers)…….Worst Read Ever…….

  • upcomingpro

    your bugging pot of greed lol

  • Nick Habeeb

    Here’s a better list

    Banned
    Sixth Sense
    Return From The Different Dimension
    Limiter Removal
    Rekindling
    Number 11 Big Eye
    Inzektor Hornet
    Number 66 Master Key Beetle
    Safe Zone
    Dark Hole
    BLS

    Limited
    Blaster Dragon Ruler Of Infernos
    Tidal Dragon Ruler Of Waterfalls
    Tempest Dragon Ruler Of Storms
    Redox Dragon Ruler Of Boulders
    Dragon Ravine
    Evilswarm Ophion
    Karakuri Shogun Burei
    Karakuri Steel Shogun Bureido
    Hieratic Dragon King Of Atum
    Constellar Kaus
    Spellbook Of Secrets
    Spellbook Magician Of Prophecy
    Mermail Abyssteus
    Mermail Abyssmegalo
    Fire Formation Tenki
    Noble Knight Medraut
    Harpie Channeler
    Judgement Dragon
    Infernity Archfiend
    Grapha Dragon Lord Of Dark World
    Snoww Unlight Of Dark World
    Bujin Yamato
    Effect Veiler
    Maxx C
    Skill Drain
    Vanitys Emptiness
    Deck Devestation Virus
    Kaiser Colisseum

    Semi Limited
    Bottomless Trap Hole
    Compulsory Evactuation Device
    Torrential Tribute
    Book Of Moon
    Lonefire Blossom

    Unlimited
    Inzektor Dragonfly
    TG Striker
    Gladiator Beast Bestiari
    Blackwing Gale The Whirlwind
    Transmigration Prophecy
    Dimensional Prison
    Debris Dragon
    Plaugespreader Zombie

    • uwishuknew

      Ur just as much as an idiot as he is when it comes to the banlist.

      • Nick Habeeb

        I heard he was the best player currently in the game so I guess I’m a fucking genius!

        • uwishuknew

          I know he’s a good player, I said the banlist not him. So someone needs to learn to read…

    • ZXAD

      This is a wish list lol you are just hitting cards YOU dont like.

      • Nick Habeeb

        It’s a list to fix the game. Your all butthurt and salty because I hit your favorite deck huh?

        • Mason G

          Your banned choice aren’t bad. Sixth sense, return, limiter, and rekindling I agree with; they all need to go.. Big Eye with dragons gone is not a big problem and doesn’t need to be banned. Hornet banned is fine. Master Key Beetle and Safe Zone both don’t need to be hit, neither are overly broken in their own right. Dark hole I could go either way with, its not a card that I think needs to be banned right now, but I can see the merits of banning it for the next format. BLS getting banned is fine, the card hasn’t seen much play but is still an overpowered card and can steal games away.
          My problem with your limited choices is that there’s too many of them. Big Dragons all to 1 is the right choice, I prefer ravine to be banned but it needed to be hit one way or another. Ophion to 1 isn’t bad, and the Karikuri monsters going away is good as well. Secrets and Blue Boy to 1 is redundant and unnecessary. The deck has quite a few consistency issues as it stands now and secrets to 1 would make the deck nigh unplayable. As your list has it Spellbooks are dead. Having Megalo and Teus going to 1 doesn’t really hurt mermails that much in a vacuum, but with all bottomless and prison brought back to 2 and 3 respectively, its going to be hard to keep those monsters in play. Mermails are limping or dead. Tenki to 1 is only necessary as a preemptive hit to Bujins, which you already covered when you hit Yamato. Noble Knight Medraut to 1 is ridiculous. That deck isn’t very strong to begin with you basically kill the chances of the deck making the only power play it has. Nobel Knights are dead. I don’t know enough about Harpies to know if Channeler is a hard hit or not. JD and Archfiend are cards that can steal games if drawn late, them going to 1 is ok, 2 might be more fair with their current place in the meta, but either way is fine. While I hate Dark Worlds, Grapha and Snoww are not the biggest problem the deck has. Dragged down is the biggest reason the deck is unfair IMO. Grapha coming back every turn and snow searching for whatever is very strong,yes but Pulling my power cards out of my hand, while you plus off it is just unfair and over powered. Bujins haven’t done anything yet,though I think they will be very powerful next format. The deck doesn’t really function without yamato so this kills bujins. Maxx C an Veiler should not be hit in any way. Veiler is not a very powerful card its its own right, and maxx c just gets your opponent to stop special summoning. Going -1 off veiler or 1-for-1ing with Maxx C isn’t overpowered. They are there to stop your opponent from doing unfair things. Skill Drain and Colosseum are fair cards to put at 1, but I don’t feel that Emptiness will be a relevant card next format since dragons aren’t going to be around. Deck Devi to 1 is fine, but I personally think all the virus cards should be banned. They are too powerful to to be healthy for the game. Basically you kill Prophecy, Mermail, Nobel Knights, Lightsworn, Bujin, and Infernity with your limited selection alone. Then your bring traps back, but you didn’t bring heavy storm back to 1. This allows decks like Fire Fist, Constellar and Evilswarm to go first and just set 3-5 backrow to prevent you from doing anything on your turn, and while these decks were touched in your list, overall they still have many of the same power plays they had before. None of your choices are bad in a vaccum, but the meta you would of created with you list would consist of these three decks running 10-20 traps and the person who went first “going set 4 summon monster pass” and having enough ignorant traps to stop any play that was made. I honestly am glad that Konami decided not to ‘fix’ the game like this.

          • Nick Habeeb

            Thanks for the input! The fact someone actually took the time to write this instead of leaving a butthurt comment shows hope for a sign of intelligence here!

  • Justin Duren

    When I first read the article I saw a few things that I didn’t like but your explanations made perfect sense so thank you for that. However I don’t really agree with the pot of greed thing because although adding more cards to the game makes it more skillful that card in particular is sort of one sided. If it said draw two cards then your opponent draws one it would be great and very healthy for the game. That is a great concept though thank you for the ideas.

  • Nick Habeeb

    Through the power of butthurt and stupidity, you created a banlist that fucks everyone over but you!

  • Professor Lyman Banner

    Somebody must like Dark Worlds…

  • Ethan Solms

    Hey Patrick, first of all I want to say that I always enjoy your articles, particularly your banlist discussions. I am glad that you base your hits on a few elements that most everybody else doesn’t recognize (mainly cards that allow for one player to play while the other can’t). I agree with the vast majority of this list, and congratulate you on making it. However, the one glaring thing that sticks out to me is PoG. As many people have already commented, it seems that your logic in un-banning it only holds true if both players draw it at the same time (ie. in their opening hand). Free advantage (especially the kind that puts you farther ahead in the game than your opponent by a large margin and/or for no cost) is another central element, in my opinion, in constructing a banlist, and PoG does exactly that. I would be curious to hear any justification from you in this regard. Furthermore, I fully agree with cards being limited that limit player interaction, and quite frankly a good portion of them (I feel) should be taken a step further and be outright banned. This holds especially true in the case of cards that can’t even be solved by MST (all the “virus” cards – DDV and EEV). Some other cards I would be curious to hear your opinion on (as I feel they either meet the proper banlist criteria or simply discourage player interaction/fuel degenerate combos and decks) are Infernity Launcher, Honest, Morphing Jar, Dark Hole, Crimson Blader (I’ve brought this up with others, and received heavy criticism for it, so your input on this one in particular would be cool), Dracossack (to 1), Big Eye (I’ve read your reasoning on this being a balancing act unto itself, which I can’t help but disagree with, as 1) Not all decks can run it in the first place and 2) When this card does come out, it will usually mean that the player will ensure his setup or even the entire game, not giving his opponent a chance to capitalize with a Big Eye of his own), and Chain Disappearance. There is so much more I’d like to say/potentially discuss with you, but I feel that this is enough for now. I apologize for such a wall of text, and hope you take the time to read it. With that, I’ll say good luck in your future endeavors, and keep up the good work! 🙂 PS. Ignore the hate, it only comes from people who are unwilling to consider others’ opinions and prove themselves to be degenerates by doing so.

  • Ender Wiggin

    >Limits Pot of Greed
    >Semi-Limits Reckless Greed

    *facepalm* You’re a pretty smart guy but how can you be this dumb.

    And you have it backwards hit power over consistency. Don’t hit the cards that access the power hit the problem…

  • Christopher Manz

    I like this list a lot. Many of the cards you hit really do just punish you for playing the game; seriously some of them even deserve to be outright banned. The only thing I disagree with really is stratos being put back to 1, and the banning of bubbleman. Stratos is just way too versatile to be unbanned- it makes so many cards just 20x better. Pot of greed is card that really will have to be defined by how the format develops under this list. It will be a staple for sure, but I think making decks just 38 cards isn’t a bad idea. I would have put reckless to 1; the disadvantage of losing 2 draw phases can be mitigated a lot in several decks.
    The only thing I want to know is why hit abyssgunde? If any mermail stuff should have been hit, I thought it would be abysslinde or abyssphere.

  • IdiotsPostMuch

    Pot of greed at 1 as well as kycoo and DNA…….and e-drags banned….it’s no wonder only negative feedback is coming back. As said before, a ,cost less +1 is stupid. E-drags were originally made to be support for weaker archetypes, at the most they are getting semi-limited. The only reasonable part of the ban list is thousand eyes.

  • Juanjf

    I ha R Yea I have to disagree with you on some stuff patrick. I have to disagree with banning all the dragons as they are not the problem. We need to get rid of their engine, ravine a swords of seven stars. Limiting both to 1 is fine and bring the dragons down to 2 is fine too. The reason why dragons are so strong is because they are consistant and that is the problem. Take that away, and you’ll have a duelist who opens with the worst hand for dragons, with that being all monsters. Fate needs to go to 1 for sure and thunder king can come back to 2, it really shouldn’t be limited anyway. If you’re going to bring back stratos there is no need to ban bubbleman, a limit will be fine, bringing E-Call back down to 2 of course. For the love of god, someone just hit infernity launcher. It is just as bad as gateway. Vanity’s emptiness needs to go down to 1, it steals games, or just bring back heavy storm (it will solve the problem of backrow reliant decks like evilswarms, bujins, and blackwings). Rekindling to 1 is fine and sixth sense and return need to be forbidden. I have more to say but I hate typing on my phone for too long so yea…

    • Bryce

      That about Dragon Rulers is exactly what everyone was saying last August. “Just hit the consistency; babies, Card Destruction, super reju, and they will be nerfed.” Well, they did, and look where we are now.

      • Juanjf

        Someone simply figured out that there were more cards out there that greatly supported rulers. The cards you mentioned completely broke rulers, and people manage to drift to a new engine. People ran ravine (a few), a seven swords in those broken engines, and the engine is still the problem. The deck has TOO much consistency, take it away and all you have is just dragons that can’t consistently beat you. If they do take these problem cards away, and bring down the drags to 2, i’m sure people will drift to the milling engine which is too inconsistent with the rulers as there aren’t that many non-dark or light cards that can coorporate well with the

  • Andrew Barner

    I know they may not make any difference in the meta, but where the hell is Dragged Down Into The Grave from a Dark World perspective? A 3-of Confiscation at the cost of letting me plus off my Dark World effect? I play and love Dark World and I think the card is unfair. Especially at 3.

    • Andrew Barner

      And you say you hit cards that don’t let people play the game.

  • Bryce

    Well, this was better than your previous wish lists Patrick; though that’s not saying much. I actually laughed a lot when you claimed “This was a great list that brought a great format!” And no, I do not like Dragon Rulers; apparently you don’t either because you are straight out banning all of them. Really? You don’t even want to try the adults at 1 and see if they become the tech choices they should have been from the start?

    Unbaning Pot of Green and semi-limiting Reckless Greed makes no sense because… isn’t this obvious Patrick? I’m not even going to say why. You might as well just leave the cards the way they are as Reckless has some weaknesses while Pot of Greed has none.

    With all the hits on side deck cards, do you want a set 5 format to come back? I know that’s essentially what Goat Control was, but why bring that back? The first player has such an advantage being able to play their whole hand without interference. Heavy Storm is already banned, and yet you also limited Royal Decree; that really disturbs me.

    I know you have the credentials; I’ve never even played in an event, but I do sincerely hope this is not the way the list turns out to be.

  • Silver

    “Cards that don’t let you play”

    You were repetitive with this phrase. My single response is that doesnt every single card that disrupts plays not let you play? Like Veiler, Maxx C, D.D Crow, and countless of other spells and traps that dont let you proceed with plays. Why not hit those? Why hit cards that hurt tier 1 decks but not hit cards that hurt tier 2 decks or lower. Your hatred for the decks that are not competitive is clearly showing. How about you stop thinking for your high group of assholes that you call pro and think of the main playerbase.

    • Lord Invishil

      No, because those DISRUPT play, they don’t completely shut it down indefinitely. And it has nothing to do with decks that are competitive or not, but strategies and philosophies that encourage skill. Drawing a continuous card like the ones above takes no skill, and it removes most of the pretense of skill from the game for the affected player. Please read the article and stop making up your own explanations for things.

  • Skylark Kraut

    This is the absolute worst banlist prediction that I have seen. Not because of the cards that you have chosen (many of which are horrible choices), but because this has been published as an entirely reasonable prediction under the ARG banner. It is a disservice to the fans of the game.

    • Lord Invishil

      So you didn’t read the part where he said “that’s why whenever I make a ban list article it is based on what I
      think the list should look like, not what I think it will look like” at all? Really?

      • Skylark Kraut

        I did read that part, and I still stand by my statement that it was a disservice to publish it, because that implies that his choices are reasonable.

  • Tails512

    Your justification for bringing back PoG is a good justification for both players starting with an extra card, not good justification for bringing back PoG. That’s just an awful move that makes less and less sense the more you think about it.

    There are other bad moves, but I’d rather not get into it.

  • BlackAce

    Nice list I’ll give you that, but banning Bubbleman, really? Banning him because he is too over powered for OTKs is not a valid reason really. In that case might as well ban infestation pandemic because it helps swarms so much or ban kerkyon and sombre so we won’t top deck a game win anymore. Sorry bro but your reason is not good enough! OTKs have always existed and when it comes to a ban list we look to balance the game not destroy potentially good decks.

  • Lord Invishil

    The problem with Pot of Greed is the fact that some people either may never draw it while their opponent does, or will draw it at a time when it utterly sacks the game. You could make a similar argument for Monster Reborn being unbanned – “it gives you access to EVERY dead monster, so using it favors skill!”, but in reality, it’s just a lucksack card. Also, I would rather limit Abyssteus instead of Abyssgunde, but I agree with a pretty high percentage of the rest of this list.

  • John Gioia

    my only true question is why ban royal tribute? non searchable, already at 1 and most GK players dont even side it let alone main it. i honestly wouldnt even give it a second thought with the new support for GKs

  • Azad

    I love the list, great job. But I feel like Warning should be on here (forbidden). Also the reasoning you provided for pot of greed isn’t enough for it to come back. Your reasoning kinda assumes that both players open it, i dont know if theres more to it that im just not seeing or what but overall great job. Hopefully we can get a list like this one day.

  • Saul Ramirez

    Why hornet!?

  • Jinix

    I also believe that some of the Bujin Cards should also be in here, especially considering the new support it has and are coming out ie, the ‘Cold Wave’, Crane, Centipede, and etc. .

  • ZodyZappa

    Ok, I’m not gonna call you an idiot or scrub or dumbass or whatever since you have experience in the competitive format, but I will say that your prediction list is WAY TOO one-sided. I mean, I agree with the Adult DR’s getting banned, I agree with Sixth Sense getting banned, I agree with Stratos & Ophion Limited, I’m ok with Thousand-Eyes Restrict Limited & BW Gale Semi’d, and T.G. Striker to 3. Everything else……..these are just cards that you yourself don’t like. Look, I understand that yeah, these cards are OP and at times unfair in their own right, but not enough to warrant any logical hits. I know you’re experienced at the competitive format, but this list feels way too personal rather than professional. This is exactly the argument that Kevin Tewart made when he was explaining the September List, calling most of the cards that got hit “auto staples” rather than actually giving us a more professional reason of why they were hit. Most of your list is not from a professional point of view, it’s just not. It’s too personal and looks more like a damn wishlist like most of the “lists” from Pojo rather than an actually professional opinion from someone who should actually know better, especially with the fanbase of people that look up to you. Now, this is Robbie Khol’s Prediction List here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NBfFibAa60 ) and this, to my surprise, is actually more logical and well thought out. It doesn’t have the majority of the bandwagon choices that you decided to choose for the reason of “these cards don’t let you play”. His choices are not one-sided, they’re not biased, they’re fair, they make sense, and most importantly, THEY’RE ETHICAL. That’s my biggest problem with your list, it’s not ethical. I can’t support your view nor do I wish others to support someone’s unethical and biased opinion of the game.

  • Alvin Yakitori

    I agree with this list for the most part. The PoG is the only thing I’d reconsider.
    That card is kind of good. Helps dig for combos pieces for those OTKs you bashed earlier.

  • Colby Blomstrom

    To all the people hating on this article, I would like to remind you who has a relatively large pool top finishes at YCS events, ARG Opens, and Nationals.
    To say that he has no idea about the game and is retarded, is to put yourself in the same position as what you are calling him.

    I do have to agree with him on the idea of this list, as my list looked fairly similar to his.

    I would like to touch on Pot of Greed though.
    With every deck being able to produce its own +1 or +2 advantage through various plays, and the limitation of every a large portion of floodgates, would it really be wise to bring back such a free card. As I’m sure you know, with out X floodgate up, X deck is free to make its plays as it wishes barring traps ofcourse. This results in a steady progression of both decks making the +1 plays in theory yes? On the flip side, I do 100% agree that the game is infinitely more skillful when both players have more cards, it creates a chess like mentality if you will. As we have seen, Chess has been around forever, so keeping a healthy game state that atleast mimics Chess, is a good thing.

    Good article Pat.

    • IdiotsPostMuch

      Topping doesn’t mean you complete knowledge of the game, it only means you know how to consistently spam/lock/burn your opponent and know general game info like hand control. Ban list is what people need to balance this game out as much as it can, it’s like how being a celeb doesn’t make you good at everything.
      Onto the ban list, to start, can you say bubble man at 0 is fine, while pog at 1 makes any sense? Might as well ban bls and limit ced.

    • Nick Habeeb

      Was his dick in your mouth while you were typing this bullshit

  • Joe Kell

    Smells like scrubby bullshit. I agree with 13 of your choices: Return, Sixth Sense, Stratos, Ophion, Greed, Decree, Fate, Restrict, Emptiness, Gale, Grand Mole, Transmigration Prophecy and Striker. I could care less about Ravine to 2 and the rest is just nonsensical. Also, this shit about “Dragons have been good for the game” is the biggest load of shit in the universe. You obviously won Nationals and that ARG off either haxy bullshit or cheating, because you have no clue how to build a properly balanced ban list. Your first category was “Cards That Don’t Let You Play,” yet you’ve played Dragon Rulers, a deck that completely overpowers the opponent. Sounds like a hypocritical section to me. Also, why the FUCK are you hitting irrelevant decks such as Hope for Exodia and Six Samurai? Neither deck has done anything since their best cards got hit (Sangan and Gateway, respectively, IMO) and you’re punishing their only reliable thinning when the decks aren’t doing anything in the format. OTKs are, and always will be, a part of this game. There is no stopping it unless every effect monster gets banned, and even that may not be enough. You also hit Limiter Removal, a card that just got relevance with the new Structure Deck. Why you won’t give that deck a chance is beyond me; that just screams “noob” to me. Another thing: Did you get buttfucked by HEROs and are still salty or what? Bubbleman is probably the best monster HEROs have left and you’re taking that away for Stratos. Stratos has no purpose without something to search for and Alius takes another Normal Summon. Way to go dipshit. I think ARG should take your article-writing privileges away. I could come up with a better list than this while stoned, drunk and brain-damaged all at the same time. Scrub.

    • Alvin Yakitori

      You sound like either somebody who played dragons and was bad, or somebody who refused to play dragons and a deck that didn’t beat them, so lost alot this format.
      Limiter is a dumb card. I’ve seen many games stolen by it. A card that “steals” games shouldn’t be a card.
      Without Bubbleman, hero’s can still play gemini beat, and A Hero Lives into Stratos, search Alius leads into plays. Stratos is a super exploitable, Bubbleman just makes him retarded.
      Your remark of calling him a hypocrite for wanting ban cards that don’t allow player interactions while he played Dragons all format was stupid. He played to win and thought the deck was unfair while playing it, but if something is unfair in Yugioh and is legal, you’d be dumb not to play it.
      You’re bad.

      • Skylark Kraut

        “He played to win and thought the deck was unfair while playing it” That is the definition of a hypocrite.

        • ZXAD

          He had three options for competitive play. Play dragons, Play anti dragons, or not play. He choose the first option and your mad at him for doing that? Sounds self righteous to me.

          • Skylark Kraut

            I was simply stating the definition of a word, not my opinion. I have no idea how that can be self-righteous.

      • Aln Dav

        Really? you’re telling Patrick Hoban he’s a bad Dragon Player, do some research before you speak man

        • Jonathan Perez

          Explain to me how the hell you win Nationals with the best deck in the format yet show up to Worlds and lose day 1 with the worst possible record while still playing the best deck in the format. He’s a fucking scrub and writes shit for articles and has ever since he began writing for ARG. ARG, do yourself a favor, lose this fag and find a better writer.

  • grepherdk

    So why leave Spirit at 1?

    • Alvin Yakitori

      Do you know what 3 axis firefist is?
      You should probably Google search what they did in the OCG.
      It’s a pretty good card.

      • grepherdk

        ….and?

      • grepherdk

        Oh, and please don’t list one of your “OCG Sources” as Shriek….for your dignity’s sake.

  • A Chris

    I see what you did there with pot, and I totally support each player having more cards in their hand for a more lengthy and fun duel, however, at 1, wont it just +1 the person who draws it first? (if the second gets it at all), I mean ideally for this logic id be at 3, but at 1 isn’t it just a plus for the person who actually hits the 1 copy in their deck?

  • LordGurru

    Congrats Pat, I always critize your prediction ban list but this list is your more accurated and fair banlist. I think the same about non themed unfair cards, but I think that heavy themed “unfair” cards would have no problem. Remember when you want limit/ban Grapha? Even w/o been hammered DW isnt relevant or breaking the game, even “abusing” Grapha. Maybe the only heavy themed unfair card from your list deserves hammer is JD, preventing future abuse. And remember too: yugioh is not only skill game, so, bringing PoG to 1 doesnt make it a more skillful based game but a luck based game.

  • Jason

    Bringing pot of greed to 1 doesn’t give both players more options, it gives the player who draws it more options. Whilst I would generally agree if both players had more cards at their disposal it would be more skillfull I do not see how limiting pot of greed does this. Following your logic pot of greed should be unlimited as it gives both players a better chance to draw it, and if one player draws 2 and another draws 1 it is less of a difference than if one player draws 1 and the other 0 (because the % increase to card economy is less). However this logic is clearly false. Have I missed something or is pot of greed not a sacky card?

  • Vendetta162

    Hoban remember calling that one player a retard?
    Way to be a retard yourself. You obviously have no idea how this game works, nor do you know the purpose of a banlist. Also, that many cards will NOT get moved around.

    • Alvin Yakitori

      I’m not sure if you read the part where he said, ” I make a ban list article it is based on what I think the list should look like, not what I think it will look like.”
      Try reading the article next time, it’ll make you look like less of an ass-hat.

  • Noah LaRosa

    I do not know what to say to this. From a change of view on life recently, I am a lot more… Rational, then I used to be and more so then most Players. I find it interesting.

  • matthewmilad

    There are many flaws to a LOT of your choices, which I will gladly discuss the specifics with you in person. But I will say this – most of your Extra Deck monster hits are near futile – they live in the Extra Deck, and most times, you only need the 1 copy. Not sure how you let Infernity Launcher stay at 1 or Tenki stay at 2. And Stratos being at 0 is also connected to Malicious being at 3, not just OTKs – and if he stays at 0, there is absolutely no reason for Reinforcement of the Army not to move up.

    I agree with the card interactions philosophy – but I have always taken it a step further to actually determine what should be on the list, and at which position: If it can give an unfair advantage to the player going first, then it should be examined more closely and be dealt with more aggressively than a card that takes more time to use.

    And I shouldn’t have to mention this… but Pot of Greed… you really don’t think that it is unfair? You KNOW people will stack that shiz.

    • grepherdk

      Tenki is fine at 2.

      Stratos being forever tied to the whims of ROTA’s position on the list is stupid, and most likely brought upon by someone having “Nam” like flashbacks of Airblade-Turbo.

    • Ikaxas

      ROTA being limited has little to do with stratos in particular, and more to do with the sheer volume of cards it can search. It’s not just an extra copy of stratos, it’s a toolbox card. Most of the warrior decks (mostly heroes and sams) have search cards already, and it’s just an extra copy of those.

  • TsuyoshiPSER

    i’m did not really understood why you put ravine to 2, if you ban all big dragons. the only deck wich profits of ravine the most is dragunity and without tempest you’ld put them to the stand of before the dragons came out. at that point they’ve done nothing in the meta. sure ravine lets you search for your dux’s, phalanx’s or even legionnaire’s, but mistilteinn wouldn’t be searchable and you can’t just make a wanky-danky combo to otk. even if you have mistilteinn and the search power of ravine to get your combo pieces, your opponent can easily stop the combo and punish you for being so greedy just with either veiler, maxx c, or even a random trap like fiendish chain, compulse, bth, etc at the right timing. this wouldn’t not just interrupt your combo, but bring you in a situation where you can’t otk anymore, because you put atum at 1 and most of the dragunity deck just play 1 of him.
    sure you can play dragunity with just 2 ravine, but it’s way more inconsistent (yes even with 3 terraforming, i tested it) and i really don’t see your point on setting it to 2. maybe you can explain it to me more in detail so i can comprehend your way of thinking like this.

    (sorry if my english isn’t the best, i’m german)

  • Maxo Horcrux

    hahaha fuckin dragon lover, this list is horrible

    • Patrick Hoban

      Did you miss the part where I banned all the Dragons?

      • Skylark Kraut

        And then unbanned all the babies.

        • Ikaxas

          Which do… what exactly without the bigs? Their whole purpose is to search the bigs. With them banned, they may as well be vanillas.

          • Skylark Kraut

            My apologies, as I was thinking the Big Dragons would be limited, as that is what most lists have been predicting. Having 4 useless cards in the game should be entirely unappealing to everyone.

  • Eric Nelson

    Banning the Big dragons also hurts the other element decks, just leave them at one or two each.

    • Patrick Hoban

      I promise you regular Dragon Rulers would still be the best deck.

      • Eric Nelson

        Even at one?

        • Stephen Mercier

          My friends and I play tested under a made up list with babies at 1, adults at 1, return banned, sixth sense banned, and fate at 1. Standard Dragon Ruler was still a very powerful deck and it could consistently beat other decks we threw at it.

          • Eric Nelson

            Whelp, then that means the elemental decks lose some tech cards that they might have needed to do anything in the meta at all.

          • Juanjf

            Of course they would be the best deck. You guys didn’t hit the engine whatsoever (which is the problem) not to mention I bet you guys didn’t use the best version of the other decks out there.

  • herzer

    M-muh skill!

  • Mozza

    I agree with a lot of this, but where’s Mistake? How does that not hurt people more than other cards that don’t let people play. Also BW’s need Black Whirlwind to be hit again, how is the +1 of whirlwind fair if armor isn’t? especially when with 3 gales, you can otk more. im sure these are just oversights as it’s hard for anyone to make an entire list themselves

    • Patrick Hoban

      You’re right, I definitely should have hit mistake.

    • Johnny Site Li

      The game is not played in card advantage alone. Whirlwind requires a player to stick a summon without response from any of the most commonly played summon response cards. It requires a field commitment as well. Geargiarmor’s effect floats through almost every commonly played summon response card, and is the very antithesis of field commitment. In a slower and more skillful format, armor punishes the grind game itself.

  • Kelly Locke

    “Cards that Don’t Let you Play”

    It’s about time someone made a list that directly assaulted this cards. September was a great format because many of these “anti-game mechanic” traps were gone. I’m tired of being punished for playing the game.

    I understand your reasoning behind PoG. I’d love it if it worked out the way you described, especially with all of the Limitations on this list.

    • Edward ‘Skedz’ Kell

      “Cards that Don’t Let You Play” <– scrub slang for I'm a scrub and refuse to admit it. Also why hit United? Wasn't my beloved Sams losing Gateway bad enough? Did you get buttfucked testing Prophecy for next format because your opponent made first turn Shi En/Nat Beast?

      • Kelly Locke

        Today I learned that Patrick Hoban is a scrub. If that the case then I suppose I wouldn’t mind being called one.

      • Alvin Yakitori

        Lol, you’re bad.

        • Skylark Kraut

          I’m 99% positive this is Hoban’s second account.

      • Lord Invishil

        Not drawing Typhoon when your opponent drew Iron Wall is not being a scrub. Stop throwing lingo around and go grab a dictionary, hotshot.

  • Jmex

    Much better than joegio’s bizarre banlists
    I don’t agree on a few cards but man why bring back PoG
    I’d be really happy to have 38 cards decks but it’s not a balanced card at all

  • MeteorD

    You bring up unfair cards, and then unban a costless +1 that can and will be run in every single deck.
    Also, do you hate Side Decks?

    • Patrick Hoban

      I’m not sure if you read the justification, but the idea of both players having more cards is healthy.
      And no, I hate cards that don’t let people play the game.

      • MeteorD

        I read the justification, but having more cards in your hand doesn’t make the game more skilled, all it does it increase the amount of sacky topdecks, and it makes it more likely that the player who goes first will draw into enough traps to stop you from playing anyway, even with the staple traps hit. Hitting PoG and then limiting Reckless+United makes no sense, at least United can be stopped with MST and shit.

        Cards like LIM are there to prevent decks from becoming top-tier without any other decks to stop them. I agree with choices like DDV, since once it resolves, it stops you from playing regardless of what you draw if your deck is hurt by it, but cards like LIM, IIW, and Gozen match can be stopped by simple ST removal, and if a deck is hit by such cards, then they should obviously be siding in more MSTs, Dust Tornado’s and shit. Simply hitting them is just inviting future top decks to be relatively unhurt by side decking.

        TL;DR
        If the trap lets you keep playing if you just use any kind of ST removal on it, then there’s no reason for it to get hit unless it prevents most decks from doing anything once it resolves like for example, Royal Oppression.

        • Ikaxas

          The problem with leaving LIM etc is that then it turns into a game of topdecks. If you draw your LIM and they don’t draw removal they lose. If you don’t draw it or they do draw removal, you lose. If they draw into a hand with like 3 removal cards and it clogs, they lose. It becomes too luck based.

        • Josh

          having more cards in your hand makes you have a better chance of winning because theres more opportunity to do things, and possibly beat your opponent faster

          • TheShadow

            ……………………

      • Alejandro

        u mad kid? hgahaha why the hell e dragons deserve to be banned becauyse ur fat ass is very afraid of then? just gtfo nd
        ok Babe?

        • Pyro

          lol he runs dragons and he wants them banned coz he wants the format to be fair. and its funny coz u are the only one with a child maturity.

          • Gerardosdr

            In fact he even won nationals with dragons, why would he even be afraid

          • Josh

            a child maturity? more children are mostly immature so your comment contradicts itself

        • Noah LaRosa

          Now thats pretty unfair. 1.) He ran them. 2.)As angry as Patrick makes me sometimes, he brings up very fair points.

      • Oran Mesica

        I’m going to have to disagree with you Pat. Sure your reasoning of unbanning the card works in theory, however the game doesn’t work like that. Your logic only works if both players start with pot of greed in hand. It’s really unfair when your opponent has a costless plus one and you don’t.

        • Ikaxas

          This